This is the second part of a debate that was held in Toronto in November of 2010 between the former British Prime Minister Tony Blair and the columnist for Vanity Fair Christopher Hitchens ( here the first part )
TONY BLAIR: First of all, I think that we should not think that because you are able to show examples of prejudice in the name of religion, then the bigotry, prejudice and wrongs that are committed to be only a derivative of religion. There are many examples of prejudice against women, against gay people and against others, who come from worlds beyond that of religion. And what I'm saying is that everything that the Church has done in Africa but it is right - let me say this - something that has certainly done, and did it when I was Prime Minister of Great Britain, [was ] organize together, including churches, a campaign for debt relief: they stand together, and they got it. The primary beneficiaries of debt relief in Africa were the girls who could go to school, because for the first time there were elementary schools free of charge.
So I agree that not all things done by the Church and religious communities in Africa and the world are right, but I tell you just to accept that there are people who have done and are doing an important job, day after day, and who genuinely are not affected, nor prejudice, nor bigotry, but who continue to work with people who are suffering from famine, disease and poverty, and doing this work since inspired by faith. And yes, it is true that not all of them or, rather, it is true that there is no need to be people of faith to do charitable work, I never said that and I would not say never. I know many, many people who are not religious at all, but they do a decent, wonderful work for their communities and the world. What I say is very simple: despite all this, there are still people who do well as inspired by the fade.
mean, I'm thinking of people I met long ago in South Africa, the nuns who took care of babies born with HIV / AIDS. These are people who deal with others, and living with them, as inspired by their faith. It would have been possible for them to do this without their religion? Of course it would be possible. But the fact remains: it was the faith to motivate them. So what I say is, at least, listen, avoid saying things like: "Here are six nursing homes, there is a suicide bomber, as you balance that?" This is not a very constructive way of discussing the ' argument.
To tell the truth, I seemed that one of the most interesting things I've been told Christopher that we can not expect to drive away from the world of religion: this is true.
fact, I think the fact that people of faith will continue to open discussions with those who think the laity is a good thing, just and healthy. And this is what we should do.
I'm not saying we should all congregate on MySpace, I'm just saying one simple thing: that we can not kick away from the world of religion, because many people believe, and I believe deeply, we see rather than what we can do to make sure that religion is a force for good, to encourage those people of faith who seek to do well, and to unite those who want to thwart those who seek to pervert religion and turn it into a badge of identity in opposition to others.
then I end up saying only this: there are many situations in which religion has committed wrongs, but there are many situations in which the wrongs have been committed without that religion will play any role, so do not condemn all people of religion because of the bigotry and prejudices of some, and we agree, at least, that there were many benefits brought by religion, and that we should celebrate.
Christopher Hitchens: I have a right to a second replica? What a great test for the patience of the audience! All right, keep as beautifully note of our progress, ladies and gentlemen. Now, okay, it's true, there are people of religious faith who are - say - fine. I know I may seem to be looking for a compromise with one of the great statesmen of recent times. They are not necessarily contrary to this impression. Only to end up on this point of charity, I made a lot of work time with a man named Sebastian Selgado, some of you have heard about it, a great photographer and UNICEF ambassador on matters of polio. I went with him to Calcutta to elsewhere. He almost managed to eradicate polio, he could give her the same end of smallpox, that is, transform it into a thing of the past, a dirty memory ... if not for all those religious groups in Bengal and in Afghanistan [saying]: "No, do not take those drops: it's a conspiracy, it is against God and his plans." Among other things, this topic is not particularly new, when smallpox was a scourge in [the West], including Timothy Dwight, president of the university of Yale, said that taking the vaccine of Dr. Jenner was an interference with the God's plans
Which, by the way ... In short, we need organizations like UNICEF if you want to continue the real work, if you want to alleviate poverty, disease and misery. And, for me, my money will always go to organizations like Médecins Sans Frontières as Oxfam, and many others - looks a bit 'strange that - go around the world doing the next good end in itself. Do not carry around the Bible, as they are doing all the time who are now in Haiti - continue to surprise them in the act [to evangelize]. The latter spend their money trying to make converts. This is a feature that has always gone hand in hand with imperialism. Part of the tradition of the missionaries: they call it "charity" if they want, but does not stand a second look.
This is what I have to say about doing good in the world, except to add that, as you are mine for a few minutes: Mr. Blair and I abbiamo, in tempi diversi, dedicato molto del nostro tempo al movimento Laburista, e se la premessa della religione fosse stata vera, fino agli ultimi anni del 19º secolo – poniamo – in Gran Bretagna, Nord America, Canada, se opere di bene fossero davvero sufficienti, e se coloro che facessero donazioni fossero meritevoli di essere onorati, e se coloro che ne beneficiassero fossero tenuti a essere grati (due disgustose idee in una), devo dire che non ci sarebbe bisogno di alcuna azione umana, sociale o politica: potremmo semplicemente fare affidamento sulla nostra innata bontà – cosa sulla quale evidentemente non possiamo contare, né ho mai detto che potessimo o dovessimo.
Ora, mi interessa questo argomento: mi sometimes you're saying that religion might be a good thing - in certain circumstances: this, we think, is the assertion. Well, what religion should do to get to that point? I think we should abandon all its supernatural claims. It should say: "No, you shall not do this under the threat of eternal punishment - hell - or the promise of a reward - Heaven. No, we are not even able to promise miracles. " Find me a church that tells us to forget about all this. Curing with faith? No, this should also give up. Should abandon the idea of \u200b\u200ban eternal, authority figure, which is unalterable both judge, jury and boia, contro cui non esiste appello, e che non finisce di tormentarci anche dopo la nostra morte. Sono parecchie le cose a cui dovrebbe rinunciare la religione, non vi sembra?
D’accordo: ma per coloro che dicono che vorrebbero che (la religione) fosse un aspetto dell’umanesimo, della compassione, un aspetto della solidarietà umana, della consapevolezza che siamo tutti legati gli uni agli altri, che abbiamo delle responsabilità verso gli altri (come quando io dono il sangue, in parte anche perché non perdo quel mezzo litro per sempre mi ritornerà in dietro, prima o poi), [e che] c’è un senso di piacere nell’aiutare il nostro prossimo, beh, io penso che [per queste persone] dovrebbe essere il minimo. Grazie.
TONY BLAIR: Immagino che dipenda tutto da quale tipo di esperienza tu abbia avuto con persone religiose. La mia esperienza con le persone con cui mi sono trovato, in Africa la scorsa settimana, esperienza che ha incluso l’incontro con gente profondamente religiosa; non che queste persone facciano quello che fanno per via del paradiso e dell’inferno: lo fanno per l’amore verso il prossimo, il che – mi sembra – è bene. Inoltre,il fatto che loro credano che questo amore verso il prossimo sia collegato ala loro fede, quindi non si tratta di qualcosa… Cioè, sì, naturalmente, è verissimo, potrebbero benissimo scegliere di fare ciò indipendentemente dal fatto di avere a religion, but the fact remains that their faith - I am convinced of this - and their impulse to do good.
And you know, I do not recognize this description of the work done by these people in what he said Christopher. Where was I, in Sierra Leone, there are Christians and Muslims working together to provide health wing in this country. What is an example of that religion plays a positive role. They work "on horseback" the division between religion and do what, again, because they believe that their faith is to force him.
when dealing with history, yes it is true that we see many examples in which religion has played a negative role. But you can also view episodes [Contributions] in the abolition of slavery, in which the reformers, religious and secular, have joined together to promote the abolition of slavery.
and then abandoned the idea that religion has created poverty. There are horrible things that happened outside the world of religion. And when you look at the twentieth century, we see the large scars of political ideology [came] about convictions which contained absolutely, and their hearts to dramatically fascism, or communism of Stalin, and that they contained at their core the absolute eradication of religion, and then I tell you this: get rid of religion as well, but do not get rid of fanaticism, or what is wrong with the world.
The question is: how do we make sense of religion, as its vital role in the modern world is growing, not declining, how can we make sense of all this? That's the point, yes, there is a responsibility for people of faith to try to mediate through the division between the different religious confessions, this is the motivation behind my foundation. [1]
We have people of different faiths, we have a program where young people meet each other, despite being of different religions, and work together on malaria in Africa, within their religious communities and here in Canada we have a program ch School enables schools to work together, using technology from one part of the world.
This is the point: when speaking of their faith, do not really speak in terms of heaven and hell, or a god who is an Executioner of those who commit wrongs. They talk instead in terms of their feelings easier, and that love of God can be best expressed through love of neighbor and through actions that spread compassion and help they need others.
In 2007, religious organizations in the United States have won one and half times more than was donated by USAID - which is not insignificant. What I want to say is very simple: you can list all the faults of religion, as you can list all the flaws of politicians - or journalists, or any other profession, but for people of faith reason to do good when they do is because their faith motivates them. And this is the true face of faith.
(continued)
[1] "Named" - very original - The Tony Blair Foundation:
http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org
The entire video can be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsz9XBhrYA
For a transcript (pur con svariati errori):
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/11/christopher-hitchens-tony-blair
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